Forum - "Call your ISP for IPv6" :: SixXS - IPv6 Deployment & Tunnel Broker

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Monday, 08 February 2016 18:05:14

Hi, regarding the initiative to close down for new requests and to have us call our ISPs instead, I would like to point out that, even if you get native IPv6 from your ISP, it rarely is a static prefix, and you almost never get both static and dynamic prefixes. So even if my ISP provides me with a native dynamic IPv6 prefix - which I like for client traffic because static IPv6 has privacy issues, especially with prefix info available directly via whois - I still rely on SixXS for a static prefix to provide services directly from home. Clients on dynamic prefixes, servers on static prefixes. I fear that asking your ISP for both kinds of prefixes will inevitably cause $currency signs to appear in their eyes, which is why for me, tunnel providers handing out static prefixes are far from obsolete, even though I already have native IPv6 with a dynamic prefix. What is your view on this? My biggest fear when reading the announcements was that SixXS will eventually close down if you view native IPv6 as sufficient, regardless of prefix type. Regards

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Jeroen Massar SixXS Staff

on Monday, 08 February 2016 18:31:45

which I like for client traffic because static IPv6 has privacy issues,

If you think an IP has less privacy issues because it changes, then you really have to read up on the state of this world... I gave a nice talk several years ago about this subject: How the Internet sees you. Or a different variant of that, in this talk: A watchful eye on DNS. If you want privacy, your best bet is to use TorBrowser and even that is not 100%....

I fear that asking your ISP for both kinds of prefixes will inevitably cause $currency signs to appear in their eyes,

Somebody is paying for the traffic. With a Tunnel Broker it is not you but a company who is providing the PoP. That model does not last forever. What you are looking for is a VPN service (for which you will have to pay) or an ISP that provides you with the connectivity you want (for which you will have to pay).

My biggest fear when reading the announcements was that SixXS will eventually close down if you view native IPv6 as sufficient, regardless of prefix type.

SixXS is there to get IPv6 deployed. When it is deployed the PoPs will slowly disappear and the project will shut down. That is the whole target of the project: to get IPv6 deployed and then to go away. Please remind yourself that SixXS has been providing IPv6 connectivity for well over 15 years already, for free.... and that is why we finally are calling people to action to get native IPv6.... Traffic, hardware etc (thanks to all the ISPs providing PoPs) are one type of cost in a project like this, the other is probably way more valuable: time. Lots of people seem to discount that.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Monday, 08 February 2016 18:47:01

Jeroen Massar wrote:

If you think an IP has less privacy issues because it changes, then you really have to read up on the state of this world...

I don't completely subscribe to the idea that the little things one can do are worthless because there are worse things. "Data austerity" works if it just prevents some random admin from correlating IPv6 prefixes, when he wouldn't have had any other method available to him. Real global adversaries shouldn't stop you from taking the little steps anyway. If it thwarts a single smaller adversary, it's worth doing IMHO. It also doesn't mean I'm not using Tor anyway.

Somebody is paying for the traffic. With a Tunnel Broker it is not you but a company who is providing the PoP.

Don't get me wrong, I'm eternally grateful for the service that SixXS has been providing me in the 10+ years since I signed up and if that service one day ceases to exist, then that's the way things are going to be and I'm fine with that. I don't demand anything.

SixXS is to get IPv6 deployed. When it is deployed the PoPs will slowly disappear and the project will shut down. That is the whole target of the project: to get IPv6 deployed and then to go away.

I think I needed that spelled out for me since I got so used to SixXS that I didn't even think about that anymore. Thanks. I shall begin making migration plans. Thanks again for an awesome service!

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Monday, 08 February 2016 18:47:13

Jeroen Massar wrote:

When it is deployed the PoPs will slowly disappear and the project will shut down. That is the whole target of the project: to get IPv6 deployed and then to go away. Please remind yourself that SixXS has been providing IPv6 connectivity for well over 15 years already, for free.... and that is why we finally are calling people to action to get native IPv6.... Traffic, hardware etc (thanks to all the ISPs providing PoPs) are one type of cost in a project like this, the other is probably way more valuable: time. Lots of people seem to discount that.

Sixxs gives me ipv6 connectivity with fixed addresses since about 2006. Thank you very much. It's a project's nature that it will have an end some time, yes. And I see that this time is near. But does it have to be a sad end after that great time? The reverse dns worked flawlessly for me for nearly ten years, and now it stopped working and the ticket #14569461 (from 2015-11-17) is still unconfirmed. It will still take many years until ISPs will offer ipv6-subnets as a matter of course. Sixxs' mission isn't completed yet. For me, ipv6 tunnels are not a 2nd class solution, they have their advantages. I'd like to keep the tunnels, the addresses, get back a working reverse DNS and I would happily pay for it.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Jeroen Massar SixXS Staff

on Monday, 08 February 2016 18:55:53

It's a project's nature that it will have an end some time, yes. And I see that this time is near.

We are not stating in any way that we are shutting down. We are stating that one should call your ISP as the freebies won't last forever. As people just accept freebies, they likely have never contacted their ISP and thus their ISP is likely not even aware that their users want native IPv6.

But does it have to be a sad end after that great time?

Are endings ever happy? (Excluding Disney movies)

It will still take many years until ISPs will offer ipv6-subnets as a matter of course. Sixxs' mission isn't completed yet.

We cannot change that businesses are businesses and run on making money. RIPE and ARIN policies enable every ISP in the world to give their customers a /56 at minimum. If they do not do that report them to the RIR. There is nothing to do about these kind of companies but voting with your money and going elswhere. Most IPv6 deployments I know of properly give end-users on cable/dsl/fiber etc a proper /56 and most of the times even a /48 as they where supposed to do originally. Those prefixes might not be static though (which is nonsense, as it only harder to do that).

For me, ipv6 tunnels are not a 2nd class solution, they have their advantages. I'd like to keep the tunnels, the addresses, get back a working reverse DNS and I would happily pay for it.

There are literally thousands of VPN services out there in the world. And large amounts of people are using those services already, try them if you don't like the service offered by your ISP, or again: vote with your money and get a better ISP. ISPs are businesses: there to make money, if they keep on getting your money, if you never call them, they will never change their product line up. YOU, the user have to call. We cannot call everybody in the world...

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Thursday, 10 March 2016 21:08:17

Hi Jeroen and other SixXS staff, I've called my ISP (small, originally rural, but now very ambitious). The second call was actually more depressing than the first. Once we've called and asked a couple of times, what should we do? Call back every six months and politely ask their IPv6 plans and status again? May I suggest this be a list or FAQ posted on the website? Jeroen Massar wrote:

There are literally thousands of VPN services out there in the world.

For me, this would be another valuable list, perhaps a wiki list like "Call your ISP for IPv6" -- namely, a list of VPN providers in various countries who provide dual stack (or IPv6-only in rare cases) transit. Thank you for your valuable service :) Clemmitt

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Tuesday, 09 February 2016 06:16:58

Holger Marzen wrote:

The reverse dns worked flawlessly for me for nearly ten years, and now it stopped working and the ticket #14569461 (from 2015-11-17) is still unconfirmed. It will still take many years until ISPs will offer ipv6-subnets as a matter of course. Sixxs' mission isn't completed yet. For me, ipv6 tunnels are not a 2nd class solution, they have their advantages. I'd like to keep the tunnels, the addresses, get back a working reverse DNS and I would happily pay for it.

fyi, only a relative newbie here, but I set up the reverse DNS the other day and its working for me.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Carmen Sandiego on Monday, 08 February 2016 21:10:27

Jeroen Massar wrote:

Please remind yourself that SixXS has been providing IPv6 connectivity for well over 15 years already, for free.... and that is why we finally are calling people to action to get native IPv6....

And what if the isp dosnt provide ipv6 yet? Example: Im with Deutsche Telekom, which isnt provideing IPv6 for Costumers like me with an old ISDN based ADSL Contract. I need Sixxs to have ipv6, if the Project would close tomorrow, it would fail becouse i would fallback to ipv4 only. i highly appreciate your service. Stefan

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Carmen Sandiego on Monday, 08 February 2016 21:31:56

Stefan Gebhardt wrote:

Jeroen Massar wrote:

Please remind yourself that SixXS has been providing IPv6 connectivity for well over 15 years already, for free.... and that is why we finally are calling people to action to get native IPv6....

To clearify: i did call in 2012 and thay said no to ipv6 for isdn/adsl customers - which im one.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Jeroen Massar SixXS Staff

on Monday, 08 February 2016 21:52:10

To clearify: i did call in 2012 and thay said no to ipv6 for isdn/adsl customers - which im one.

It is four years later, call them again...?

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Jeroen Massar SixXS Staff

on Monday, 08 February 2016 21:55:36

Example: Im with Deutsche Telekom, which isnt provideing IPv6 for Costumers like me with an old ISDN based ADSL Contract.

Keep on calling them and reminding them that it is important. It is 2016. Not 1996 when the first RFC just came out and not in a time where IPv4 is out at the RIRs. They have had enough time to plan all of this.

I need Sixxs to have ipv6, if the Project would close tomorrow, it would fail becouse i would fallback to ipv4 only.

Ask Telekom to sponsor a PoP and the time and money to run such a service as they have failed to deliver.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Carmen Sandiego on Tuesday, 09 February 2016 01:19:46

Jeroen Massar wrote:

> Example: Im with Deutsche Telekom, which isnt provideing IPv6 for Costumers like me with an old ISDN based ADSL Contract. Keep on calling them and reminding them that it is important. It is 2016. Not 1996 when the first RFC just came out and not in a time where IPv4 is out at the RIRs. They have had enough time to plan all of this.

I need Sixxs to have ipv6, if the Project would close tomorrow, it would fail becouse i would fallback to ipv4 only.

Ask Telekom to sponsor a PoP and the time and money to run such a service as they have failed to deliver.

ill try, but thay mad it clear in the future that thay dont have any intrest in giving old customers ipv6.. i guess if i change to ALLIP ill get nativ ipv6, but i want to keep my isdn as long as possible.. thats the problem with monopolism, thay dont need to hear us out, we have no way of avoding them. i will also call versatel, the only isp here in nrw region i know still selling isdn/adsl lines. i dont know but it feels like germany is not on the technology high in terms of ipv6 here - this is sad!

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Jeroen Massar SixXS Staff

on Tuesday, 09 February 2016 01:34:06

ill try, but thay mad it clear in the future that thay dont have any intrest in giving old customers ipv6..

i guess if i change to ALLIP ill get nativ ipv6, but i want to keep my isdn as long as possible..

thats the problem with monopolism, thay dont need to hear us out, we have no way of avoding them.

Complain to your government about the monopoly situation, though they likely have shares in the companies that are the monopolies (even though in theory they are not as they have different markets, one controls the telephone cables, the other the TV cables).

i will also call versatel, the only isp here in nrw region i know still selling isdn/adsl lines.

Who will likely not upgrade their DSLAMS/BRAS if those are outdated or cannot easily be upgraded to support IPv6. Unless they do PPPoE they would have to upgrade all that infrastructure (though they could have seen that coming years ago).

i dont know but it feels like germany is not on the technology high in terms of ipv6 here - this is sad!

Germany is at 21.3% IPv6 deployment, which actually is mostly because of the monopolies who are forcing CGN + DS-Lite down people's throats....

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Tuesday, 09 February 2016 16:22:31

Jeroen Massar wrote:

I need Sixxs to have ipv6, if the Project would close tomorrow, it would fail becouse i would fallback to ipv4 only.

Ask Telekom to sponsor a PoP and the time and money to run such a service as they have failed to deliver.

I contacted Bell Canada, about 4 months ago, in both in a consumer and business form and they were next to useless. They had marketing about IPv6 on their website, but at that time clearly had zero training across the board on what IPv6 was or what the offering was. My approach is to check up every 6 months and see if things have changed. In the meantime, in Quebec, the last status check showed TechSavvy offering IPv6, Videotron providing IPv6 to domestic accounts (it was a mess when I asked them for IPv6 for a business line) and Bell with crossed-lines.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Tuesday, 09 February 2016 16:29:45

Andre-John Mas wrote:

... I contacted Bell Canada, about 4 months ago, in both in a consumer and business form and they were next to useless. They had marketing about IPv6 on their website, but at that time clearly had zero training across the board on what IPv6 was or what the offering was. My approach is to check up every 6 months and see if things have changed. In the meantime, in Quebec, the last status check showed TechSavvy offering IPv6, Videotron providing IPv6 to domestic accounts (it was a mess when I asked them for IPv6 for a business line) and Bell with crossed-lines.

I just did a new check on Bell and while they do have http://ipv6.bell.ca , from what I can see this is only for enterprise, which are using a 'dedicated' connection and it is a bring your own IPv6 subnet approach. I also like that they state "the time for planning IPv6 migration is now". How about planning is nice, but to actually to have a set of useful options provided by the ISP would make it likely we can get past the planning stage?

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Friday, 01 April 2016 16:31:32

Jeroen Massar wrote:

> ...

I also keep annoying my providers about IPv6. With NO result what so ever. Sunrise (Switzerland) has no intention what so ever to implement IPv6; inofficial they said "to few requests, and to few sites reachable with v6". Salt (Mobile-Provider, Switzerland) has no intention in implementing even DS lite in their System, eventough they shall be planing to go "full VoLTE". Swisscom (Fixnet and Mobile) shall be testing DSlite. Meaning: 10/24 and a dynamic v6-Prefix (have no further details); to get into this program, you'll need connections... Only Provider handing out full native v6: Init7 (the ones offering PoP via Sixxs). But to be reachable by them, you'll need a fibre-strain to your flat, and that strain needs to be connected to Init7... I understand that Sixxs.net is a project which will eventually end - as sad as it is. But "Customers asking the Providers" is not the best idea, as it has been mentioned, it has only the "currency-symbols in the eye"-effect. Maybe they'd go for "well, Customers are asking for v6, fine with us, lets go DSlite" - and then they'll hand out Class-A-Adresses (nonrouted) and dynamic prefixes. And THIS would corrupt one of the main ideas of v6, for a fake privacy-issue (as people still believe that dynamic IP-adresses ensure privacy (facepalm) ) In the end, v4-Services (like Skype) won't work due to the 10/24, and v6-advantages can't be used due to dynamic prefixes. Ok, they will be v6-prefixes; but is THAT the project's goal? Btw - as by know, Sixxs seems to have reached it's project-apax, and those like me enjoying your service need to rethink their options... Maybe the question has been raised allready, but what will happen with "our" prefixes we currently "own" via Sixxs? Will we be able to keep them or will they be given back to the providers when the Service will stop? Anyway, thanks for the service 'till now; hope the project will exist a few years longer... Btw - as IPv6 deployment seems to be raised ("traue nie einer Statistik die du nicht selber geflscht hast") - is there a way to find out how many of current v6-users are using sixxs.net-service? Cheers, Mike

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Jeroen Massar SixXS Staff

on Friday, 01 April 2016 17:57:07

Btw - as by know, Sixxs seems to have reached it's project-apax, and those like me enjoying your service need to rethink their options...

What kind of options? Time is a fixed factor.

Maybe the question has been raised allready, but what will happen with "our" prefixes we currently

"own" via Sixxs?

IP addresses cannot be "owned". They are "delegated" and "assigned", not "owned" or "leased".

Will we be able to keep them or will they be given back to the providers when the Service will stop?

There is no 'property' there. Thus when a PoP shuts down, the prefix goes back to the ISP, who could return it back to the RIR, who could return it back to IANA.

Btw - as IPv6 deployment seems to be raised ("traue nie einer Statistik die du nicht selber geflscht hast") - is there a way to find out how many of current v6-users are using sixxs.net-service?

There is no way to count that, as one cannot in any way or form count a "user" even if you see packets as you do not know which packets belong to one or another user. See "Misc/Tools" for all statistics that are available: traffic, amount of accounts, amount of tunnels etc etc.

"Call your ISP for IPv6" Private

Shadow Hawkins on Friday, 01 April 2016 21:15:33

Jeroen Massar wrote:

IP addresses cannot be "owned". They are "delegated" and "assigned", not "owned" or "leased".

IPv6 addresses, yes. IPv4 ones? Not quite. Depends on when they were issued. Some of the older ones can be considered legacy property. I bring this up because I think this venture is naive. A tunnel broker, one of the biggest, declaring to the world that the gravy train is over isn't going to convince ISPs to turn on IPv6. Only financial pain will do that. And some people live in countries with Monopoly providers. Some people don't have a choice in ISP at all. These are the people your service benefits the most. I was lucky, I only needed to use your service for a year, but due to a healthy market I was then able to move to an ISP that did provide IPv6. I'm also in a position at work to help champion their IPv6 deployment. So for me, this "Call your ISP" is kinda a reminder that I can't keep using my dynamic tunnels to provide mobile IPv6 access, and as a stop gap at work while I get their native deployment working. Finanical pain isn't coming for a while, not with legacy providers who were issued Class A space back in the 80s and early 90s who can make very healthy profit reallocating (and in some cases selling outright) /24s and /23s to ISPs. And that's not to mention the CG-NAT problem. I would strongly recommend reconsidering your policy here. One thing you could do a nominal fee for new tunnels and subnets? The justification is the same, but the result is people who really need it can still get it.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Jeroen Massar SixXS Staff

on Friday, 01 April 2016 21:24:30

IPv6 addresses, yes. IPv4 ones? Not quite. Depends on when they were issued. Some of the older ones can be considered legacy property.

I was talking about IPv6 only, as SixXS does not provide IPv4. Note that for IPv4 many of the 'legacy' holders have had to register with ARIN for getting IPv6 space, and at that point they fell under the normal program too and their 'legacy' space suddenly was normal space too...

I bring this up because I think this venture is naive. A tunnel broker, one of the biggest, declaring to the world that the gravy train is over isn't going to convince ISPs to turn on IPv6. Only financial pain will do that.

I fully agree. But we as SixXS cannot cause that kind of impact, the users can though.

And some people live in countries with Monopoly providers. Some people don't have a choice in ISP at all.

SixXS cannot solve monopolies. Only your government, when they are not in the pockets of those monopolies, can solve that. You need to go to your government to solve that. Google Fiber is strangely enough an excellent example that that kind of change can happen btw.

These are the people your service benefits the most.

The people who benefited the most are the monopolies who have been waiting and waiting as the users never called them to get IPv6.

I would strongly recommend reconsidering your policy here. One thing you could do a nominal fee for new tunnels and subnets? The justification is the same, but the result is people who really need it can still get it.

What you want is a VPN provider... SixXS was only intended to help people to transition to IPv6, not to provide free connectivity because your ISP can't do what you are paying them for... Vote with your money, build your own ISP if you need to.

"Call your ISP for IPv6" Private

Shadow Hawkins on Friday, 01 April 2016 21:45:49

Jeroen Massar wrote:

What you want is a VPN provider... SixXS was only intended to help people to transition to IPv6, not to provide free connectivity because your ISP can't do what you are paying them for...

Oh yes, because all VPN providers offer IPv6 connectivity. And because when you want IPv6, encryption is necessary for the whole transport layer...

Vote with your money, build your own ISP if you need to.

This proving the naivety of you to me. I suggested a plan that would allow people to vote with their money, if you said "it'll cost 20EUR to sign up to a new tunnel" then ISPs are no longer competing with free are they? Never mind, it was always my plan to provide a paid 6to4 service (with optional IPSec) for clients who wanted IPv6 access for home users in NZ, I guess I'll need to accelerate those plans. Good luck to you in your future endeavors Jeroen.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Jeroen Massar SixXS Staff

on Friday, 01 April 2016 21:57:13

Oh yes, because all VPN providers offer IPv6 connectivity. And because when you want IPv6, encryption is necessary for the whole transport layer...

Google and be surprised how many ISPs will offer you a tunnel with all the options you do or do not want. Money is what is needed though.

If we would ask for money, then people can ask for an SLA and response times. Which would require hiring somebody 24/7. We cannot do any of those things. And the service would cost a lot more than 20 EUR... time is a quite valuable thing.

Never mind, it was always my plan to provide a paid 6to4 service (with optional IPSec)

The fact that you call it "6to4" shows that you have little knowledge about the subject....

for clients who wanted IPv6 access for home users in NZ, I guess I'll need to accelerate those plans.

Instead, did you ask the ISPs to deliver native IPv6. Also note that you then become the ISP yourself...

Good luck to you in your future endeavors Jeroen.

Please realize that SixXS is a fun hobby project, we have been doing real work all the time already... quite succesful I might add...

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Friday, 01 April 2016 22:17:34

Jeroen Massar wrote:

> This proving the naivety of you to me. I suggested a plan that would allow people to vote with their money, if you said "it'll cost 20EUR to sign up to a new tunnel" then ISPs are no longer competing with free are they? If we would ask for money, then people can ask for an SLA and response times. Which would require hiring somebody 24/7.

No. You don't have to do this. You can spell our that your service is not for profit, as you always have, and that the fee is merely there due to the fact that address space isn't free

The fact that you call it "6to4" shows that you have little knowledge about the subject....

Oh because I wrote in a rush and put 6to4 instead of 6in4 definitely means I know nothing about the subject. Good one. Most modern forums have something called an edit function. You might want to look into it.

Please realize that SixXS is a fun hobby project, we have been doing real work all the time already... quite succesful I might add...

I wasn't meaning to be insulting. However, I can't say the same for you and your previous comment.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Jeroen Massar SixXS Staff

on Friday, 01 April 2016 22:37:59

No. You don't have to do this. You can spell our that your service is not for profit, as you always have, and that the fee is merely there due to the fact that address space isn't free

Unfortunately that is not the way the Internet works. Most people think that every service on the Internet is free as it is "payed anyway", as well, Google, Facebook and all the others have that model. Nobody bothers to actually read what is written on the website.

Oh because I wrote in a rush and put 6to4 instead of 6in4 definitely means I know nothing about the subject. Good one.

Accidents indeed happen, but it is quite similar to the people who claim to know everything about anonymity and then proceed to call Tor, TOR... People stop taking people serious when they are not able to use the right names for things and just throw technical terms around which do not make sense. But, indeed typos etc do happen. Thus I'll ignore the typo and assume you indeed wanted to actually write '6in4'... And then add on to it that you really do not want to bother with IPSec unless you are a Microsoft shop and are deploying Active Directory. If you want encryption or authentication please simply use OpenVPN it is a lot less painful in deploying it (read: NAT, or actually CGN)

Most modern forums have something called an edit function. You might want to look into it.

There actually is edit functionality. It is disabled though, as too many people started changing their words after they where called out for it. This is btw something you will notice on many discussion forums. One can always note that a mistake was made and update the sentence in a reply. There is btw a Preview function, so that one can re-read what one writes before posting.

"Call your ISP for IPv6" Private

Shadow Hawkins on Saturday, 02 April 2016 01:09:07

Jeroen Massar wrote:

> [...]

You have fair and good points. Just one comparing image you should consider though... (first: I'm no native to english, so don't bring it down to spelling or grammer-faults, thanks) Take a balloon; and start to fill it with air; it becomes bigger, and bigger, and bigger. If you don't stop, it will eventually explode. But if you stop filling it with air, you have a nice, big balloon. But then you let it go - without sealing the valve... All the air will go out, the Balloon will fly wildly uncontrolled away, and ends up deflated somewhere on the floor... You want to prevent Sixxs.net from exploding (and giving pressure to the ISPs) You stop filling it with air (stopped the registering-part). You essentially "threatened" to release it and that the valve will not be sealed ("time is costly", "sry guys - if we stop, you'll loose your prefixes", "open an own ISP if you need v6 so badly" (.O) etc) As I wrote - you have fair and good points everybody understands. But as YOU wrote, sixxs is here to help deploying v6. By slowly stopping your "business" here, you'll rapidly deflate the use of v6. So essentially, the only thing left to say: thanks for seeing the inside of "real life v6"; has been nice and informative... But kinda pointless for the next 30 years? Nothing will change - because those in the net providing services don't ask for... But there is actually something YOU, as "official SixXS.net" could do: for next - shall we say "Administrator Day" - ask Google, Facebook and Wikipedia to reduce their v4-functionality; not to stop them, just a new startpage with a summary of the v4/v6-issue, and that people should ask their ISP to go forward... We "few" SixXS-Users won't do the trick... But SixXS has been founded when there were no smartphones... I bet "my" pop - 24 hours of www.facebook.com shows "dear member, obviously your provider still has not migrated to IPv6. this won't go well for long anymore WE are ready for the future, your ISP apparently not. you should ask your ISP for a fast IPv6 implementation" (or something like this - just made it up ;) - "Generation Facebook" would break their smartphone-touchscreens to ask the ISPs for immediate v6. And THIS ammount of Customers actually would do the trick... Anyway, thanks for the service...It's fun while it lasts...

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Jeroen Massar SixXS Staff

on Saturday, 02 April 2016 21:47:03

But as YOU wrote, sixxs is here to help deploying v6. By slowly stopping your "business" here, you'll rapidly deflate the use of v6.

There is no "business". SixXS is just a hobby project run in our spare time, of which we have very very little.

But kinda pointless for the next 30 years? Nothing will change - because those in the net providing services don't ask for...

You are a user, you can ask for it.

But there is actually something YOU, as "official SixXS.net" could do:

for next - shall we say "Administrator Day" - ask Google, Facebook and Wikipedia to reduce their

v4-functionality; not to stop them, just a new startpage with a summary of the v4/v6-issue,

and that people should ask their ISP to go forward...

SixXS holds no power whatsoever over giants with millions of dollars in revenue like Google, Facebook and yes, even Wikipedia (non-profit they claim... with those salaries, amazing...). You as the users will have to contact them. Oh indeed, all those organisations are big black boxes: they have their data, they have no contact points.

"Generation Facebook" would break their smartphone-touchscreens to ask the ISPs for immediate v6. And THIS ammount of Customers actually would do the trick...

Facebook or Google etc have to do those actions. These are massive corporations with stock owners do. There is no benefit for them to do any of that kind of action as it will just lose them money. Again, SixXS holds no kind of power over them. We are just a few guys doing this for the fun of it. Hence, why the best thing people can do is to actually call your ISP.

"Call your ISP for IPv6" Private

Shadow Hawkins on Sunday, 03 April 2016 01:18:46

Jeroen Massar wrote:

You actually do believe that sixxs holds no power whatsoever, do you? Well - you didn't get the point of my post(s). 1. Even if all sixxs-"users" call their ISPs - nothing will change. Because we are just one small group with far to less power in our hands. 2. you have a business - if it pleases you or not. You don't ask for money or something, but sixxs is your brand, and "providing tunnels for IPv6-deployment" your service. You explored a market gap and your service has a high demand. Your business is banging, Jeroen! Will come to that later... 3. you DO HAVE POWER. You just don't use it; actually, you're even throwing it away right now... Read your own Mail-Notification about why sixxs is no longer accepting new registrations to find at least TWO of your powers in the whole internet. Ask yourself a question: "how many PoPs have been implemented via SixXS?" and add "if we stop SixXS, all these PoPs will vanish, all these v6-Users will be back on v4 again. Are there any organisations who could want this to happen?" 4. you don't have to bribe google/facebook/wikipedia or buy them... 4a) if a normal, common user (well I don't use FB but) like me ask them to do something - same effect as 1. 4b) if Jeroen Massar, as official representative Boardmember and Initiator of SixXS writes an official (press-)statement to google, FB and Wiki explaining the problem (ISP's relaying on SixXS; no visible development in "bringing v6 to the customers" and ask them to support your venture as is "deployment of IPv6", just a "hobby" growing way over your head etc), asking them to make a "campaign" for showing all users who don't know that their ISP's are "cheating" (eg. 3G/LTE: 10/24-Adresses...) and asking their users to contact their ISPs... Google, FB and Wiki would listen to that message/statement. WHY? It comes from SixXS - the ONE big known v6-deployment-"company" in the net. And they just said they don't want it to continue anymore... (and as those 3 are already "full v6", they sure would at least think to help. With some "nice hints" hidden in the statement, maybe you can sell your business to someone willing to textend it) 4c) statements sent to the "IPv6-Council" (like swissIPv6-Council) also might help to "shake them wake"... YOU, Jeroen, have power. WE, your users (your clients) don't. As for your Hobby/Business: well, if you like it or not, SixXS is not a hobby anymore. It left that "state" when you opened for everybody, all around the world. But, I admit, it grew over your head. Essentialy, you have 3 options now: 1. you can shut it down - annoying users who don't have the opportunity to, as you so friendly suggested, "open an own ISP if they can't find an alternative to SixXS" 2. you can accept that your hobby has become marketleader (!) and a) sell your hobby to someone who sees the opportunitys and wants to "exploit" them (sure google would have an open ear) b) stand by your "hobby" and get some people aboard who help you out (maybe even hand it over to a "Verein"/non profit-organisation built with the intend to continue SixXS; with elected board, registry-responsibles, coordinated PR aso - you could do it as a "community" without paid jobs; many ways to do it, free choice) 3. "go politics" (as you also told people); start writing and lobbying - as official SixXS and you CAN speak for SixXS (it's your page, your service, your hobby); do it with governments, ICANN, RIPE, the v6-Councils, all the Service Providers, Newspapers if possible, the ISP's aso. Make your point that you can't take the responsiblity pushed to you by the lacy ones (ISP and Content/Service Providers). You decided to vote for "1". Imho the worst of all ways. Because over and over again, other Users write and wrote "we asked, but the ISPs are saying (no service requieres it, so NO/we don't plan/no need for/go to another ISP then/we are planing but not in a hurry)... You preach to the choir... Because it's a "Henne/Ei"-Problem. What's first? The Service demanding v6, or the Availability of v6? As I wrote (and you probably know) - Google, Facebook and Wikipedia already support v6 native. And THEY are the big players. And if only Google starts with a "doodle"-campaing - it would have a much bigger impact than those "few loony SixXS-users asking to joyn them in the present"... (eg. LTE/3G and 10/24). Jeroen, at the moment YOU shake the internet! Just read all the IT-News and see what a wave you launched by defenetly not accepting new registrations anymore... (I'd suggest a Mix between Options 2 and 3; go politics! ISPs relaying on YOUR hobby...) You still think you don't have any power? (do you know "Jassen"? (Swiss card play) - you throw away your best trumps; or to "talk poker" - you hold a royal flush; but instead raising each bet, you fault.) Well - it's your decission of course and you have good arguments; and as a customer I'll have to accept your business-decisions. But as I said: your hobby has long left that "state" and YOU have power we user's don't have. Because you would not only speak for SixXS, but also for all those, who registered with you (and THIS means power.) Anyway... Have a nice sunday! (and just to point it out again: you made good and fair points - just want to show you another way to reach your goals (including "getting that hobby out of your head"))

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Jeroen Massar SixXS Staff

on Sunday, 03 April 2016 02:08:11

You actually do believe that sixxs holds no power whatsoever, do you?

Absolutely nothing. This has been proven over and over.

1. Even if all sixxs-"users" call their ISPs - nothing will change. Because we are just one small group with far to less power in our hands.

Every call people make, every notification in the social media, is another point in a statistic that the ISPs users want something. If you do not call, then you are not adding to that statistic.

2. you have a business - if it pleases you or not. You don't ask for money or something, but sixxs is your brand, and "providing tunnels for IPv6-deployment" your service. You explored a market gap and your service has a high demand. Your business is banging, Jeroen! Will come to that later...

High demand? The only people use SixXS is because it is free. There are alternatives. Also many most people do not care about IPv6. They care about IPv4 and for that there are thousands of VPN providers who do run a business. SixXS is just a hobby project, for the fun of it, as at one time we had some spare time left. There is no real reason for SixXS anymore: there are many locations one can get IPv6. The ones that cannot get IPv6, did not call their ISP enough to get it, or did not change to an ISP that has it. Vote with your money.

Ask yourself a question: "how many PoPs have been implemented via SixXS?"

Does that matter? The world is a bit larger than that. ISPs earn millions, they really can't care about that.

"if we stop SixXS, all these PoPs will vanish, all these v6-Users will be back on v4 again. Are there any organisations who could want this to happen?"

VPN providers and in general commercial ISPs are very happy if we stop. As they charge money with it.

4b) if Jeroen Massar, as official representative Boardmember and Initiator of SixXS writes an official (press-)statement to google, FB and Wiki explaining the problem (

You seem to have missed the whole "SixXS is a hobby project". All the companies you mention happily ignore anything we have been doing, though they have been annoyed by various things over the years. SIxXS is a very small drop of water on a very very big and very hot plate. No impact whatsoever. The goal that SixXS was made for and what it has achieved a long time ago is to get people to play with IPv6.

do it with governments, ICANN, RIPE, the v6-Councils, all the Service Providers,

We have spoken to many of these over the years: no impact. Do also note that all of that costs a lot of time. Time is a very very valuable resource that is also very limited.

(like swissIPv6-Council) also might help to "shake them wake"...

The only thing that any of these "IPv6 councils" have achieved is consulting time for their own people. They have not made any real impact either. Otherwise they would brag about it on their sites. There is a big reason why SixXS is not included in any of these councils: we are not a company and do not buy ourselves into those things.

Newspapers if possible,

Heise has a newsticker article, it is already gone from the front page. Nobody cares about IPv6, and why should they? Facebook works, Google works. Nothing happens there. The majority of people will never ever know what IP is, let alone that IPv4 and IPv6 are different. And that is totally fine by me; I do not know how a car works either ;) Please remind yourself that SixXS has been active for well over 15 years and we have ourselves been doing IPv6 for close to 20 years.... as yep, got access very early :)

And if only Google starts with a "doodle"-campaing

Google will never break connectivity on purpose to their users: they earn millions per day with advertising and user tracking. Same goes for Facebook and any other big property. They only did their "IPv6 day" back then purely as they already knew it would not break "too much".

Jeroen, at the moment YOU shake the internet! Just read all the IT-News and see what a wave you launched by defenetly not accepting new registrations anymore... (I'd suggest a Mix between Options 2 and 3; go politics! ISPs relaying on YOUR hobby...)

I don't see any shaking. If it did, people would have actually contacted us. Heise for instance did not even verify their story and just published something that is in part a 1st of April joke ;) So much for journalism. See also the 'discussions' on that article, very useful ones ;) The only contacts we get are "but I want it anyway!" kind of comments. People love free stuff. I hope you also realize that we announced this whole "not accepting registrations" anymore in December already. That is 3 months ago. Did not make a puff in the air anywhere. And I am totally fine with that, as there is a lot of native IPv6 out there and there are more important things in the world.

and as a customer I'll have to accept your business-decisions

But you are not a customer, just a user. And it is not a business decision. It is a decision of time: spending time on helping users does not solve anything. The people who needed IPv6 to learn from it all have learned from it, and deployed it at their relevant networks.

(including "getting that hobby out of your head"))

There are lots of companies doing VPN services, really, that is not a thing one changes the world with nor something I can bother spending my time on.There is a lot more fun with real things that actually make a difference. IPv6 is not one of those things any more. Let me rephrase the above differently: how much actual real positive impact did Wikileaks and other such things have? Indeed zilch, except for some random newspaper article that most people have already forgotten and some people behind bars or otherwise living a restricted live, a few people with strange "suicides" and most importantly all kind of funny laws that allow exactly the opposite of what those people wanted and more sneakery to keep everything hidden. Hence, no positive effect whatsoever... Companies do whatever they want to do. Single-persons will not make a difference. But if even 10.000 people now have called their own ISPs, that will have made a small statistic in the call center statistics.

"Call your ISP for IPv6" Private

Shadow Hawkins on Wednesday, 20 April 2016 18:26:29

To anyone reading along: I'm not a long-time user at SixXS but am very grateful for their service. I got my first IPv6 field deployment (for a non-profit) running thanks to connectivity provided by my SIxXS tunnel. Before I even contacted SixXS requesting an account and tunnel, I tried to do my homework. Because I checked them out first, from the very beginning it was obvious to me that SixXS was directed towards being a (my words) "hands-off" organization. In fact, I was mildly surprised when my request was approved and tunnel allocated only a few days later. And very thankful :) But note that if a SixXS PoP is down and you contact SixXS, they will tell you "we don't own or control the PoPs and can only politely ask them to look into the problem." (Any corrections to this paraphrase are welcome.) This means their policy is to abrogate any responsibility for any problems which are not a part of their in-house engineering. This includes any market-leader position they might have. They are uninterested in working in order to improve connectivity or use, which would benefit their clients and the Internet services used by their clients. Of course, SixXS provides their service for free so you have no reasonable expectation of IPv6 tunnel uptime, etc. (All this being said, I have found SixXS to be an excellent service. At the time the current application embargo was supposed to end I was ready to request a subnet for further educational and testing work at home.) My point is, with SixXS their service is a Catch-22. We don't pay so we have no power to make demands of SixXS. Therefore, SixXS has no power to make demands of PoPs or any other organization. Neatly packaged and tied with a bow, that. So, simply put, SixXS is a dying organization because it is neither growing nor self-repairing. It depends on the kindness of strangers ;) When I realized this last month, I contacted my ISP and purchased a static IP address connection for my home service (US$10/mo.) while I could still "reserve" one. I then set up a HE tunnelbroker.net connection. Now I'm in the process of transitioning away from SixXS because it is going away sooner or later. NOTE that I'm not transitioning to ISP-provided IPv6. I've contacted my ISP and they have nothing to offer and no schedule for a pilot project, much less full deployment, of IPv6. I would pay for native IPv6 if I could. The best I can do is pay for static IPv4 and establish a free-to-use IPv6 tunnel, which works fine. End result: My ISP continues to get off Scot-free. They get my $10/mo. AND they don't have to do squat to deploy IPv6. This is NOT the desired outcome SixXS claims their actions promote. So, put that in your pipe and smoke it :\ My ISP's only downside is that I'll bug them twice a year to be included in any pilot project they roll out, who knows when, not holding my breath. Thanks again for IPv6 transit! Clemmitt

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Tuesday, 09 February 2016 17:13:51

I just added a wiki entry, so we can keep track of who was contacted, when they were contacted and what the response was. Feel free to tweak the appearance as necessary: https://www.sixxs.net/wiki/Call_Your_ISP If you know your ISP already supports IPv6, then it would be worth noting that too.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Monday, 15 February 2016 17:44:40

Andre-John Mas wrote:

I updated for the US Brighthouse Networks. They are adamant about not supporting ipv6 as unnecessary. I would expect they may find the fees imposed on ipv4 for users and businesses is far to lucrative to begin any ipv6 support. Most of the support, even technical support, has little understanding as to what ipv6 is. and a quote from a BHN employee BHNtechXpert

Contrary to IPv4mageddon claims we have plenty of IPv4 addresses and then some for our customers. It will come in time. In the meantime HE tunnels work great for those who feel the need.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Carmen Sandiego on Wednesday, 10 February 2016 20:28:30

ok, i tryed calling an mailing 2 german isp.. the call was like "pls mail this to us", yet i dont get any answer (and dont expect them anymore) on my mails. i guess you can sum this up with: thay dont care with no information why.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Carmen Sandiego on Thursday, 11 February 2016 16:48:52

Stefan Gebhardt wrote:

ok versatel answerd me.. bad result.. ipv6 only for soho and enterprise but not always an no plans/intrest in home also no intrest in providing a pop. ill update the wiki with it. had to speak with the press office as the normal support could not or wanted not to help.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Tuesday, 16 February 2016 14:35:15

"Call Your ISP for IPv6" is a good idea, but the ISP's are have done it or not interest in it. By example: - Vodafone, i have asked them many times and get the answer "no plans for Dual Stack on mobile Network" - O2, also ask many times and got no ansers - Unitymedia provides IPv6 with SDlight (Carrier Grated NAT) for non-Business and IPv4 only for Business. What a fucking bullshit, isn't it? I ask, but the companies not interest in "future" Technologie or only it is best for itself (see UPC). Same time the provides IoT and do not think about IPv6 connectivity.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Jeroen Massar SixXS Staff

on Tuesday, 16 February 2016 14:43:08

There are a few options: - call your government regulators - take your money to another provider - raise it on social media, as then their press office starts noticing IPv6 Deployment has been going on for a long time already, ISPs that do not want to, will not till they notice they do not get cash anymore or the publicity gets bad.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Saturday, 20 February 2016 01:05:23

Jeroen Massar wrote:

Maybe we need a hashtag for this? Maybe #ipv6missing or #whereismyipv6, though someone can probably suggest a better one?

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Monday, 22 February 2016 12:27:53

Jeroen Massar wrote:

There are a few options: 1 call your government regulators 2 take your money to another provider 3 raise it on social media, as then their press office starts noticing

1 done 2 no alternativ with acceptable Speed 3 done in social media and blogs Hopefully the provider will rethinking it position.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Tuesday, 05 April 2016 08:31:35

Jeroen Massar wrote:

All those solutions is really nice - if there was someone that listened on the other side. And sometimes, moving to another provider won't work, especially when there is only one provider in the area. I can scream out loud, but the only ending result is that I won't be able to talk. (I would gladly pay for the ipv6-service here, if it was possible. Unfortunately, there is only ISK available, so I can't send any money either)

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Jeroen Massar SixXS Staff

on Tuesday, 05 April 2016 08:34:09

especially when there is only one provider in the area

That is called a monopoly, those are not legal in many countries and especially not in the European Union where you are part of. Hence, use the first option: call your government regulators.

I would gladly pay for the ipv6-service here, if it was possible.

Did you call your ISPs and tell them that you would pay for it? As they love to hear about more positive cash flow.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Carmen Sandiego on Wednesday, 24 February 2016 02:11:16

Asked Deutsche Telekom, thay refuse to answer, thay dont care about reputation as thay have nearly none. Thay have a monopol.. no real alternative to them in my region so i cant cut money.. its a real pain in the back side.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Wednesday, 24 February 2016 13:34:01

Stefan Gebhardt wrote:

Well that depends. For consumer grade products: 1. POTS or ISDN Line + DSL Your contract (Allgemeine Geschftsbedingungen) it will state that you will only be able to reach IPv4 services. I 2. All IP (VoIP based): This overs IPv6 (dynamic /56) for quite some time now. German Telekom is working on abandoning POTS and ISDN. I knoe several people whose contracts are already canceled .

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Carmen Sandiego on Thursday, 25 February 2016 22:54:10

Jens Link wrote:

Stefan Gebhardt wrote:

well thay simple refuse to answer me since a long time.. dont know why. the abandonment of isdn and pots has nothing to do with ipv6!

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Carmen Sandiego on Thursday, 25 February 2016 22:55:44

Stefan Gebhardt wrote:

Jens Link wrote:

Stefan Gebhardt wrote:

well thay simple refuse to answer me since a long time.. dont know why. the abandonment of isdn and pots has nothing to do with ipv6!

the last information i could found from 2012 in there forum was ipv6 only for new contracts with voip since than its dead silent.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Thursday, 31 March 2016 19:29:49

Actually it seems like the action has success. This evening I noticed all kind of weird problems. First analysis has shown that Ziggo/UPC have started out handing out IPv6 natively. Seems to be working great (after disabling my Sixxs setup). Guess half of NL is now moving to IPV6.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Tuesday, 26 April 2016 15:11:49

Bart A. W. Pustjens wrote:

Good for you. I'm on Ziggo too but yet no signs of IPv6 roll out. I've called customer service but they could not tell when my location will be upgraded.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Friday, 29 April 2016 15:21:52

For anyone who is not an sixxs member, what is the best way of providing details to update the wiki page https://www.sixxs.net/wiki/Call_Your_ISP_for_IPv6 ?

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Carmen Sandiego on Sunday, 01 May 2016 15:17:57

Andre-John Mas wrote:

For anyone who is not an sixxs member, what is the best way of providing details to update the wiki page https://www.sixxs.net/wiki/Call_Your_ISP_for_IPv6 ?

i think the best way for a non sixxs person willing to update the wiki would be forwarding the data to a sixxs member, updateing the wiki for them.

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Tuesday, 17 May 2016 12:43:07

Stefan Gebhardt wrote:

Andre-John Mas wrote:

For anyone who is not an sixxs member, what is the best way of providing details to update the wiki page https://www.sixxs.net/wiki/Call_Your_ISP_for_IPv6 ?

i think the best way for a non sixxs person willing to update the wiki would be forwarding the data to a sixxs member, updateing the wiki for them.

If there is no objection, I'll see if I can start a thread on dslreports, to help discover more ISPs?

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Wednesday, 18 May 2016 13:44:22

Andre-John Mas wrote:

Stefan Gebhardt wrote:

Andre-John Mas wrote:

For anyone who is not an sixxs member, what is the best way of providing details to update the wiki page https://www.sixxs.net/wiki/Call_Your_ISP_for_IPv6 ?

i think the best way for a non sixxs person willing to update the wiki would be forwarding the data to a sixxs member, updateing the wiki for them.

If there is no objection, I'll see if I can start a thread on dslreports, to help discover more ISPs?

Thread here: https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r30763177-Call-your-ISP-for-IPv6

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Thursday, 26 May 2016 14:05:18

Aktuelle Stellungnahme von Unitymedia: "Hallo@Micheal, im Business-Bereich ist Dual Stack in der Planung. Fr Privatkunden in NRW und Hessen Ist dieses nach jetzigem Stand nicht vorgesehen. Beste Gre Dein Unitymedia Hilfe-Team" (Hintergrund: in BaW ist es kein Problem als IPv4 Kunde einen Dual Stack zu bekommen) Actually informations from Unitymedia (IPC Germany) "On Business sector dual stack in planned. On private sector in NRW and Hessen (German region) dual stack is not provided according at the current status . Regards Your Unitymedia helping team" (background: in BaW it is no problem to get a dual stack, even you have IPv4)

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Shadow Hawkins on Wednesday, 08 June 2016 21:25:00

What kind of hardware does a pop require? If the ISP can not upgrade the entire infrastructure, they could put up a pop, but are we talking 100 or 10.000?

"Call your ISP for IPv6"

Jeroen Massar SixXS Staff

on Monday, 13 June 2016 11:04:55

Leif Neland wrote:

What kind of hardware does a pop require? If the ISP can not upgrade the entire infrastructure, they could put up a pop, but are we talking 100 or 10.000?

The website has these details. But SixXS is not setting up new PoPs. And in 2016 it also does not make sense to do so. If an ISP does not have IPv6 connectivity for their customers today, they will likely never move and just keep on adding layer and layer of NAT. Better start moving to a real ISP.

"Call your ISP for IPv6" Private

Carmen Sandiego on Thursday, 23 June 2016 21:14:22

Jeroen Massar wrote:

If an ISP does not have IPv6 connectivity for their customers today, they will likely never move and just keep on adding layer and layer of NAT. Better start moving to a real ISP.

Hi Jeroen Massar, do i read some frustration there about the ipv6 situation or is that my (miss)interpretation? We asked our "Internet Service Provider".. we dont get anything moving. Did you contact any of them after reading the wiki - if there is frustratrion?? You say "Better start moving to a real ISP" - can you explain a bit more? What if just as an example, there is no "real ISP" in <insert country here>? thank you very much. have a nice weekend. Stefan

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